Strategic reaction to cards

All about getting the AI less baka...
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Nazar-WTH-PCgamer
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Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Nazar-WTH-PCgamer »

Some cards affect both players in a bad kind of way... like "Ankh of Mishra", "Armageddon Clock", "Blood Clock" to name only a few here. If the AI's deck is built to counter it or to manage/workaround it without any issue, then fine! In most case it isn't and it may not have what is required to counter the threat. Then, we could simply identify those cards that effect both sides, regroup them under one category/file and suggest a minimal loss strategy vs them as they come into play. That way any AI would refer to the same file at all time and kick into gear a strategy vs such a card regardless of on which side it come into play.

Recognize a hidden/subtile threat... like when AI faces a Platinum Angel. In such case, unless AI is already struggling for its survival, then AI should focus on making it disappear before worrying about other creatures and to ban it forever if possible. That means to use exile over bury/destroy spell. There again, such threats/cards should be identified and listed/regrouped under one single file with a global or specific counter strategy triggered as these card are put in play by human player.

Also the decision making when it comes to fetching a land seems poor at the moment. I've seen the AI using "Rampant Growth" without fetching the land or playing a "Civic Wayfinder" but declining the free land AI could get along with it. Unless a reason being given by a strategy like mentioned above vs "Ankh of Mishra" for instance, I don't see any reason why the computer should pass on a free land. I am also unsure about that part but it seems worse for the computer to make a choice during human player's turn. Is that possible? Does anyone know why? Can it be fixed or at least made the same as during AI's turn?

Thanks in advance for your comments/answers.
Nazar is meant to rule the world... Someday! Once Nazar is in charge, goblins won't have to hide or shovel orcish poops no more. Vote for Nazar!!!
Zethfox
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Zethfox »

these cards you mention are fairly new, until about last release platium angel didnt even exist in wagic...ive been playing "catch up" with the ai trying to teach it about the newer effects but i put it off becuase there ALOT of talk about trying to go min max ai....inwhich case it would render any work i did teaching the ai any further completely wasted time...understand?
wololo
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by wololo »

Nazar-WTH-PCgamer wrote: such threats/cards should be identified and listed/regrouped under one single file with a global or specific counter strategy triggered as these card are put in play by human player.
No, that's not a good approach.
What the AI needs to do is look for all cards that have a "cantLose" ability granted on their opponent, and target these card primarily.
This way, with one single change in the AI, you take care of ALL cards that have this ability, without needing to track down all "unofficial" sets that are floating on the site.

Wagic is not only Magic, we support much more than that, so targeting specific cards is usually not something I'd like to see...
Nazar-WTH-PCgamer
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Nazar-WTH-PCgamer »

I can understand and since I didn't look at the AI/game/combat scripts ever yet I have no clue how this is all done in WTH. Consider this only as a suggestion and it's no big deal if it doesn't help improving anything... as long as it's somehow already covered by what you guys are working on (or planning to work on).
Nazar is meant to rule the world... Someday! Once Nazar is in charge, goblins won't have to hide or shovel orcish poops no more. Vote for Nazar!!!
Yorien
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Yorien »

Yorien says:

As Wololo suggests, instead of coding a database with cards that will have to be continually updated (new sets, unofficial sets, created-from-scratch cards, etc), code the "CantLose" ability and add high enough threat associated to it so AI will "know" that dealing with that card is a priority; how it deals with that card is another matter.

I believe best idea to deal with almost any card is to build an internal "threat meter" (WoW style) into battles taking into account initially values as damage, resistance, abilities... so the IA quickly identifies damaging cards by their threat value, and then update the meter depending on the "moves" being made (ex, a creature enchanted with unholy strenght will have their threat increased, ...).

While this is mainly oriented towards creatures, you can also assign "threat" to almost any card andcould even keep separate meters by card types (for example, a threat meter for creatures, another one for enchants and another one for artifacts) so once the AI gets a Shatter, will target the first one on it's artifact meter, if it pops out a Terror, will target on the first non-artifact, non-black creature on the creature list, and so on...



This way, AI will know how to deal with all past, present and future "CantLose" cards.
wololo
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by wololo »

For the record our ai already has such a threat mechanism
Yorien
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Yorien »

Yorien says:
wololo wrote:For the record our ai already has such a threat mechanism
Yep, I know.

Separate the threat by card type and so on are just ideas that might be considered as tweaks, since different card types may "work" in different leagues (for example, Progenitus and Leyline of Punishment, both of them are extremely dangerous cards, but work in "different leagues", so you might be interested in popping Wrath of God or tapping Nevinyrral's Disk for the Progenitus, but would prefer keeping Leyline down if it suits your playstile - ex, a Suicide Black -).
Nazar-WTH-PCgamer
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Re: Strategic reaction to cards

Post by Nazar-WTH-PCgamer »

I agree with Yorien. One card put on your side of the battlefield in 2 different situations or facing 2 different AI opponents may not involve the same reaction and in this manner the threat meter you are discussing seems more relevant than the categories I suggested because it could adjust to each particular case to determine the priority and action required vs that card. I'm glad to see you guys are on top of it ;)
Nazar is meant to rule the world... Someday! Once Nazar is in charge, goblins won't have to hide or shovel orcish poops no more. Vote for Nazar!!!
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